Joe Rogan Experience #2465 - Michael Shellenberger

Michael Shellenberger asserts that President Trump operates with extreme independence, making foreign policy decisions without significant influence from traditional advisors, think tanks, or even major campaign donors. This approach, exemplified by actions in Iran and Venezuela, prioritizes an assertion of American power and interests, rather than seeking regime change or adhering to established international norms. This marks a complete paradigm shift from the post-war rules-based order, which relied on consensus and expert guidance.

Shellenberger states, 'Trump is in charge like he's making these decisions. There's nobody behind him... he's just acting.' He cites Trump not giving Elon Musk electric car credits despite a large donation as evidence of this independence. He also references Mark Carney's articulation at the World Economic Forum that 'older rules-based order is gone.'

The massive funding allocated to address homelessness in California, totaling billions of dollars, has paradoxically led to an increase in the problem. Shellenberger argues that the system is structured with perverse incentives: more homeless individuals justify larger budgets for service providers and related industries. This creates an environment where eliminating homelessness would mean the end of a lucrative business model, leading to practices that enable rather than solve the crisis.

Shellenberger explains, 'San Francisco was like between $100 and $120,000 a year per homeless person... That money is going to... nonprofit service providers who are just bringing food and, you know, alcohol and drug paraphernalia to make it easier for people to do drugs and overdose and live in tents on the street.' He adds, 'you have an incentive to create homelessness and that's what they've done.'

Shellenberger reveals a change in his initial conviction that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered, now stating he is unsure whether it was homicide or suicide. This shift is attributed to a deeper examination of the evidence, including Epstein's prior suicide attempt, the complexities of the prison environment, and the challenges of substantiating claims of intelligence community involvement in his death or a broader sex blackmail operation. Rogan, however, continues to highlight numerous circumstantial details that raise suspicions of foul play.

Shellenberger states, 'I've changed. I think I spent a bunch of time with the Files... I was confident it was a homicide and now I don't know.' He mentions the hyoid bone argument and the fact that Epstein tried to commit suicide 18 days prior. Rogan counters with details like the cameras being cut, guards being asleep, and Epstein's cellmate being a contract killer.

The discussion on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs) extends beyond mere physical sightings into the realm of spiritual and existential inquiry. Both Rogan and Shellenberger explore theories, such as Jacques Vallee's 'control system' hypothesis, which posits that UAPs are part of an evolving system influencing human consciousness. They also touch on ancient religious texts like the Book of Enoch, suggesting historical parallels to modern UAP encounters and a deep-seated human need to understand a 'higher power' or unexplained mysteries.

Shellenberger references Vallee's view of UAPs as a 'control system' that 'evolves human consciousness and it will manifest different things... in relation with humans over time.' Rogan discusses Tucker Carlson's belief that UAPs are 'angels and demons from the Bible' and the Book of Enoch's description of 'watchers' and 'Nephilim.'