S
Sean Carroll
March 9, 2026

Erica Cartmill on How Human and Animal Minds Think and Play | Mindscape 346

Quick Read

This episode explores the complex, non-linear nature of intelligence across human and animal species, challenging anthropocentric views and revealing the sophisticated social and cognitive abilities of great apes, dogs, and birds.
Intelligence is a 'constellation of abilities,' not a linear scale, with species excelling in different cognitive domains.
Playful teasing in great apes and other animals functions as a 'proto-joke,' building and testing social relationships by violating expectations.
Evaluating AI's 'understanding' requires methods from comparative cognition, moving beyond verbal output to probe internal states, similar to studying non-verbal animals or young children.

Summary

Erica Cartmill, an anthropologist and cognitive scientist, joins Sean Carroll to discuss the diverse forms of intelligence found in the natural world. They challenge the linear progression model of intelligence, emphasizing that different species, including various great apes, possess unique 'constellations of abilities' adapted to their ecological and social niches. Cartmill highlights experiments where chimpanzees outperform humans in working memory tasks, while humans excel in abstract numerical understanding. The conversation extends to social cognition, explaining how species like chimpanzees and bonobos excel in 'Machiavellian intelligence' due to their complex social structures, contrasting with the material manipulation skills of solitary orangutans. A significant portion of the discussion focuses on animal play, teasing, and the potential for a 'sense of humor,' defining teasing as a 'proto-joke' that builds and tests social relationships. Finally, Cartmill advocates for applying methods from comparative cognition and developmental psychology to rigorously evaluate the understanding and internal states of artificial intelligences, rather than solely relying on verbal outputs.
Understanding the diverse forms of intelligence across species provides a critical framework for evaluating human uniqueness and the capabilities of artificial intelligence. It challenges simplistic, linear views of cognitive development, revealing that intelligence is a mosaic of specialized skills rather than a single scale. This perspective is vital for developing more robust and accurate methods for assessing AI's true understanding, moving beyond superficial linguistic proficiency to probe deeper cognitive processes and avoid anthropomorphizing machine outputs.

Takeaways

  • Intelligence is not a linear progression; each species, including humans, possesses a unique 'constellation of abilities' optimized for its specific ecological and social niche.
  • Chimpanzees, like 'Ayumu,' can significantly outperform untrained adult humans in certain working memory tasks, such as sequencing numbers that flash on a screen.
  • While chimpanzees can learn to sequence numbers, they do not grasp the 'cardinal number principle' (each number is one higher than the last) in the same way human children do, requiring individual training for each new number.
  • Great ape species exhibit different cognitive strengths: chimpanzees and bonobos excel in 'Machiavellian intelligence' (social dynamics, predicting others' motivations) due to their complex social lives, while orangutans are highly proficient in material manipulation and problem-solving.
  • Humans are fundamentally a cooperative species, sharing information freely and trusting others in ways not observed in other great apes, which is foundational for complex communication like language and podcasting.
  • Animals, such as song sparrows, encode specific information about the identity and location of callers, demonstrating complex processing beyond simple call types.
  • Playful teasing in great apes, characterized by 'offer and withdrawal' or 'provocative non-compliance,' serves as a 'proto-joke' that builds and tests social relationships by exploring boundaries and eliciting reactions.
  • Bonobos exposed to laughter (a 'laugh track') show increased optimism in a cognitive bias test, suggesting that positive emotional cues can influence their expectations of future outcomes.
  • Play signals, like a dog's play bow, create a 'frame' that indicates actions should not be taken seriously, differentiating playful interactions from aggression and facilitating social learning.
  • Assessing the 'understanding' of Large Language Models (LLMs) requires applying rigorous methods from comparative cognition and developmental psychology, rather than solely relying on their verbal self-reports, as verbal output does not always reflect true internal comprehension.

Insights

1Intelligence is a Unique Constellation of Abilities, Not a Linear Scale

The traditional view of intelligence as a linear progression with humans at the top is inaccurate. Each species has evolved a unique 'constellation of abilities' that allows it to thrive in its specific ecological and social environment. Humans are equally evolved as other species, just good at different things.

Erica Cartmill states, 'Humans are equally as evolved as every other species. And so the things that humans have evolved to be good at are, you know, helping humans fit into the social and ecological niches that we have. But the same is true of every other species.'

2Chimpanzees Excel in Working Memory Tasks Over Humans

Chimpanzees, particularly one named Ayumu, demonstrate superior working memory compared to untrained human adults in a task where numbers flash on a screen and must be pressed in sequence after disappearing. This highlights a specific cognitive ability where non-human apes can outperform humans.

The experiment involves numbers 1-9 flashing on a screen; as soon as the first number is pressed, all others disappear, requiring quick mental mapping. Ayumu is 'much better than untrained adults, human adults.'

3Human and Ape Number Learning Differs Fundamentally

While chimpanzees can be trained to recognize and sequence numbers, their learning is laborious for each new number. Human children, however, experience an 'aha moment' around numbers four or five, grasping the 'cardinal number principle' that each new number is exactly one higher than the last, allowing for abstract understanding and manipulation.

Cartmill explains, 'teaching her [Ayumu] a new number is just as difficult as teaching her the last number... that's very different from what happens with humans... once they learn four or maybe five, then they suddenly get it and they realize that each new number is exactly one number higher.'

4Great Ape Cognition is Specialized by Social Structure

Cognitive strengths among great apes vary based on their social environments. Highly social chimpanzees and bonobos excel in 'Machiavellian intelligence' (understanding motivations, alliances, gossip) crucial for navigating complex group dynamics. More solitary orangutans, conversely, show superior skills in material culture and manual problem-solving.

Chimpanzees and bonobos 'are very interested in paying attention closely to who's doing what with whom when.' Orangutans 'spend a lot of time... in a semi-solitary state' and 'really seem to excel is in material culture, material manipulation.'

5Human Cooperation and Trust are Unique Hallmarks

Humans are fundamentally a cooperative species, willing to share information and help unrelated individuals, often at a personal disadvantage. This high level of trust and cooperation is a key differentiator from other apes and is essential for complex social structures and communication like language.

Cartmill states, 'humans are fundamentally a cooperative species. We share information with others that doesn't benefit us. Sometimes it disadvantages us.' She contrasts this with apes who would not share the location of a resource.

6Playful Teasing as a 'Proto-Joke' and Relationship Test

Playful teasing in animals, especially great apes, involves 'offer and withdrawal' or 'provocative non-compliance.' This behavior, which often violates expectations or social norms, acts as a 'proto-joke' and serves to build and test the strength of social relationships by gauging how much the other individual values the relationship over momentary annoyance.

An infant orangutan repeatedly offered a stick to its mother then pulled it back, and the mother reciprocated. Cartmill notes, 'it has this structure of a very basic joke... this setup, the offer, and then this... punchline... the withdrawal.' Teasing 'might be serving both to build relationships but also to test those relationships.'

7Laughter Induces Optimism in Bonobos

Bonobos, when exposed to laughter as an auditory stimulus, exhibit increased optimism. In a cognitive bias test, they were more likely to approach ambiguous 'gray boxes' (intermediate between consistently rewarded black and unrewarded white boxes) after hearing laughter, suggesting a positive emotional state influencing their expectations.

Bonobos 'when they've listened to laughter, they're more likely to approach the gray boxes than when they've listened to a control sound.' This indicates 'listening to laughter, leads to them expecting more positive things.'

8Comparative Cognition is Essential for Understanding AI

To truly understand the cognitive capabilities and 'understanding' of Large Language Models (LLMs), researchers must apply rigorous methods from comparative cognition and developmental psychology. These fields specialize in assessing intelligence in non-verbal subjects (animals, young children) and can help probe beyond an LLM's verbal output to determine if it genuinely understands or merely predicts responses.

Cartmill advocates for 'applying more sort of guidelines and methods from animal communication or animal cognition to the study of AI and LLM specifically' because 'we can't just take them at their word.'

Lessons

  • Observe your pets' 'teasing' behaviors (e.g., cats knocking things off, dogs initiating chase) as potential forms of playful social interaction that build and test relationships.
  • When evaluating AI, particularly LLMs, apply a 'comparative cognition' mindset: question whether verbal output reflects true understanding or merely sophisticated pattern matching, similar to how scientists study non-verbal animal intelligence.
  • Consider how social dynamics and individual 'moods' influence interactions, recognizing that social relationships are dynamic and require continuous 'testing' and adaptation, much like animals navigate their social hierarchies.

Quotes

"

"Humans are equally as evolved as every other species. And so the things that humans have evolved to be good at are, you know, helping humans fit into the social and ecological niches that we have. But the same is true of every other species."

Erica Cartmill
"

"Humans are fundamentally a cooperative species. We share information with others that doesn't benefit us. Sometimes it disadvantages us."

Erica Cartmill
"

"I certainly think that that cats and dogs have a sense of humor in a way. I certainly think that they have things that they know they're not supposed to do that they enjoy doing because it gets a reaction."

Erica Cartmill
"

"I think fundamentally a joke is you know setting up an expectation and then violating it in some way."

Erica Cartmill
"

"We can't just ask you know a one-year-old or a 2-year-old hey why did you think this right or why did you do this? You can't ask you know a magpie or a chimpanzee why did you do this? You can ask an LLM and it will give you an answer but the question is does that answer actually map on to why they did that."

Erica Cartmill

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