Red State MAGAs ASHAMED as Trump Craters (w/ Angie "Pumps" Sullivan & Phil Gordon) | Bulwark Podcast

Angie Sullivan argues that many white, upper-middle-class women in abortion-ban states continue to vote for politicians like Trump because their privilege allows them to afford out-of-state medical care if their daughters face a crisis pregnancy. This insulation prevents them from applying the consequences to the 'greater good' and makes them less likely to change their political views based on reproductive rights issues.

Sullivan states, 'when you're white, you're upper middle class, so you have the protection of privilege. And it's very easy to say my privilege insulates me from if my daughter had a pregnancy that had to be terminated for medical reasons, I could afford to take her somewhere else to provide health care for her.'

Sullivan suggests that for some deeply entrenched MAGA voters, particularly those whose views are tied to religion, only significant financial loss (e.g., in stocks, bonds, 401ks) might prompt a re-evaluation of their political allegiance. She observes that 'the cost to humanity and humans and lawbreaking and corruption all of that is fine until it affects my pocketbook.'

Sullivan states, 'I think that the pain would have to be loss of you know stocks, bonds, portfolios, 401k that is where like it it seems the cost to humanity and humans and lawb breaking and corruption all of that is fine until it affects my pocketbook.'

Phil Gordon characterizes Trump's foreign policy, particularly concerning Iran, as a series of extreme and rapid shifts. He notes Trump's oscillation between aggressive threats of escalation (like wiping out power plants) and sudden pivots to 'serious discussions' and de-escalation (like lifting sanctions on Iranian oil). Gordon views the lifting of sanctions as a 'desperate and panicked move' driven by a desire to mitigate rising oil prices caused by his own actions, rather than a coherent strategy.

Gordon describes Trump's actions as 'we're on a roller coaster and the cycles just keep getting faster and faster' and later calls the lifting sanctions on Iranian oil 'a desperate and panic move.'

Gordon expresses regret that the Biden administration did not re-enter the JCPOA, believing they were 'too sensitive to the politics of it and perception.' He argues that the deal, despite its imperfections, effectively curbed Iran's nuclear program and that Trump's withdrawal directly led to the current problem of highly enriched uranium. Gordon suggests that Democrats are often too cautious, fearing political blowback from both internal factions and external critics, which prevents them from taking bold, principled stances.

Gordon states, 'I wish we had [re-entered JCPOA]. I think we could have gotten some extension of it.' He adds, 'I think we were probably too sensitive to the politics of it and perception.'

Both guests agree that Democrats could learn from Trump's 'superpower' of authenticity and willingness to be 'strong and wrong.' Sullivan advocates for politicians to show more 'fight and spirit' and not be afraid to use strong language to defend personal freedoms. Gordon notes Trump's ability to challenge 'received wisdom' in foreign policy without political cost, suggesting Democrats should be more decisive and less worried about criticism from cable news panels or internal party dynamics.

Sullivan says, 'I think we have to have some fight and some spirit and not be afraid to say, "Fuck you."'; Gordon states, 'strong and wrong goes a lot a long way and sort of authentic authenticity goes a long way too.'