Trump's Iran Ultimatum (w/ Margaret Donovan) | Command Post
Quick Read
Summary
Takeaways
- ❖Donald Trump threatened to "obliterate" Iranian civilian power plants via a social media post, linking it to opening the Strait of Hormuz.
- ❖Military lawyer Margaret Donovan states that targeting civilian infrastructure is only legal if it loses protected status by serving a military purpose, not for economic goals like lowering gas prices.
- ❖Such a strike would likely fail all four principles of armed conflict: military necessity, proportionality, distinction, and avoiding unnecessary suffering.
- ❖General Mark Hurtling explains that executing such a widespread strike within 48 hours is militarily impossible due to required target assessment and resource allocation.
- ❖International treaties like the Geneva Conventions are ratified by Congress and hold the same legal supremacy as the U.S. Constitution, making them binding domestic law.
- ❖Military officers have an obligation not to follow unlawful orders, creating a profound ethical and legal challenge when faced with such directives from the Commander-in-Chief.
- ❖The 'command climate' set by top leadership, like a Secretary of Defense dismissing rules of engagement, can embolden disregard for legal standards at lower levels.
- ❖A judge advocate (JAG) officer's duty, if advice against an illegal strike is ignored, includes reporting war crimes and potentially resigning.
Insights
1Legality of Targeting Civilian Power Plants
Civilian power plants are typically 'Category 1 no-strike facilities' with protected status under DoD policy and international law. They can only lose this status if their nature, location, purpose, or use contributes to the enemy's military action or if their destruction offers a definite military advantage. Targeting them solely for economic reasons, like lowering gas prices, is not a legitimate military objective and would violate the laws of armed conflict.
Margaret Donovan, a military lawyer, states that Trump's threat to 'obliterate' power plants for economic reasons would likely fail all four principles of armed conflict: military necessity, proportionality, distinction, and avoiding unnecessary suffering.
2Military Feasibility and Assessment for Strikes
Executing a widespread strike against all power generation facilities in a country like Iran within a 48-hour ultimatum is militarily impossible. Such an operation requires extensive assessment of each target, potential collateral damage, civilian workers, and the overall effects beyond just destroying the building. It also demands significant military capabilities and resource allocation that cannot be rapidly re-tasked.
General Mark Hurtling describes the impossibility of such a rapid strike, noting the need for target assessment, collateral damage analysis, and the vast capabilities required, which exceed what the Air Force and Navy could deploy on short notice. He also mentions the 'trooptotask relationship' where sudden mission changes cause 'task overload'.
3The Dilemma of Unlawful Orders for Military Officers
A direct order from the Commander-in-Chief, if perceived as unlawful, places military officers in an extremely difficult position. Orders are generally assumed lawful, but officers are obligated to determine if an order is unlawful and, if so, to disobey it. The stakes are immense, with personal and professional consequences, including legal liability for those who execute unlawful commands.
Margaret Donovan states, 'Nobody knows what who is calling the shots, what he means... But as the commander-in-chief in that role, if that is the status from which you are making that statement, in any other world, that would be an order.' General Hurtling adds that it's 'the most difficult position any officer that's commanding a unit can be in because the stakes are immense... There's no just following orders.'
4International Law as Domestic Law in the U.S.
International treaties and agreements, such as NATO, the Geneva Conventions, and the UN Charter, are not merely 'breezy concepts' but are signed and ratified by Congress, making them binding domestic law in the United States. Under the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution, treaties hold the same legal footing as the Constitution itself and statutes passed by Congress.
Margaret Donovan emphasizes, 'NATO, the Geneva Conventions, the UN charter, all of those agreements have been signed and ratified by Congress. And so that means that they actually are domestic law. They're not just floating in the wind somewhere.'
5Impact of Command Climate on Military Conduct
The 'command climate' set by top leadership significantly influences military conduct. When a Secretary of Defense or other senior leaders express disregard for rules of engagement or legal frameworks, it can embolden some personnel to ignore established protocols, potentially leading to unlawful actions and severe consequences for those involved.
General Hurtling explains, 'the command climate emanates from the top... certainly there are people who are emboldened when they hear the secretary of defense say things like this.' He cites an incident where a brigade commander was relieved and soldiers court-martialed for violating rules of engagement after misinterpreting orders.
Key Concepts
Four Principles of Armed Conflict
These principles (military necessity, proportionality, distinction, and avoiding unnecessary suffering) guide the legality of military actions, especially concerning civilian targets. Any strike must adhere to these to be considered lawful.
Protected Status of Civilian Objects
Civilian infrastructure (like power plants, hospitals, mosques) generally holds 'protected status' and cannot be targeted unless its nature, location, purpose, or use directly contributes to the enemy's military action or its destruction offers a definite military advantage.
Unlawful Orders Doctrine
Military personnel, particularly officers, are legally and morally obligated to disobey orders that are clearly unlawful, even if issued by the Commander-in-Chief. This principle places immense responsibility on individual judgment and adherence to the law of armed conflict.
Notable Moments
The hosts and guest discuss the legal implications of Donald Trump's social media post threatening to 'obliterate' Iranian civilian power plants.
This sets the stage for the entire discussion, highlighting a controversial and legally complex statement by a former Commander-in-Chief.
Margaret Donovan explains the specific conditions under which civilian infrastructure can legally be targeted in armed conflict, contrasting it with Trump's stated economic motive.
This provides the core legal framework for understanding why Trump's threat was problematic, emphasizing the principles of military necessity and distinction.
General Hurtling recounts an example of striking a mosque used for military purposes in Mosul, illustrating the difficult decisions commanders face and the importance of clear intelligence and communication.
This real-world example demonstrates the practical application of the laws of armed conflict and the public relations challenges of targeting allegedly protected sites, even when justified.
The discussion on the 'unlawful order' dilemma for military officers, including the concept of 'moral injury' and the legal obligation to disobey illegal commands.
This highlights the profound ethical and professional challenges faced by service members when political directives conflict with legal and moral duties, and the lasting psychological impact.
Margaret Donovan clarifies that international treaties ratified by Congress are considered domestic law in the U.S., not just 'breezy concepts.'
This corrects a common misconception and underscores the binding nature of international law on U.S. military actions and foreign policy.
General Hurtling humorously refers to a sudden shift in military tasks as a 'cheetah flip,' stating it's a 'doctrinal term.'
This lightens the mood in a serious discussion and provides a memorable, if informal, piece of military jargon.
Ben Parker's awkward but 'brilliant' transition from discussing war crimes to an ad for a meal delivery service, which General Hurtling praises.
This provides a moment of levity and self-awareness from the hosts amidst a heavy topic, showcasing podcasting skill.
Quotes
"My first thought was, um, this is seems illegal. Um, but you should understand that you actually can target in certain circumstances civilian infrastructure. And that's kind of a shocking thing for people to learn, I think, when they begin to think about targeting in a in a combat environment."
"The advantage I think that the president was trying to convey here, I think that we're all looking at is to lower gas prices, which isn't actually a legitimate military objective, right? That's just like an economic goal."
"The rule can't be we're going to emiserate an entire country so our gas prices get lower because we accidentally spiked them."
"It's the most difficult position any officer that's commanding a unit can be in because the stakes are immense. The pressure is real... The consequences, personal and professional, are important for you as an individual, but also for the soldiers you protect."
"When we talk about conducting what I would consider, if if it doesn't meet the standard of the four standards that Margaret just mentioned of any attack on those facilities, we are using weapons to try and persuade governments to change their direction. It's the same thing Russia has been doing for the last four years in Ukraine. So targeting civilian facilities makes us, I'm going to say this openly, kind of puts us in the same category of being a terrorist because we're trying to persuade a nation to do something by striking their citizens. And that's just horrific in my view."
"The whole role of a commander in combat is is to control chaos. It is to control chaos and instill discipline so soldiers don't turn into, you know, a tilla the hun uh and and go after bad guys just for the want of killing. That's not what we do."
"Not only do you have an obligation to tell your commander what whoever it is in your chain of command that people also have an obligation to report war crimes. And it is actually a war crime itself, a violation of Geneva itself to not report war crimes."
Q&A
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