StarTalk Podcast
StarTalk Podcast
March 24, 2026

How We’re Trying to Detect Dark Matter Particles, with Katherine Freese

Quick Read

Theoretical physicist Katherine Freese reveals cutting-edge methods for detecting dark matter, from billion-year-old rocks to 'dark stars' observed by the James Webb Telescope, and challenges prevailing theories on dark energy.
Paleo detectors use billion-year-old rocks to record dark matter interactions over time, replacing massive liquid detectors.
Katherine Freese's 'dark stars,' powered by dark matter, are now candidates for unexplained super-bright objects seen by James Webb.
The debate over whether dark energy changes over time is intensifying, with new data interpretations challenging initial findings.

Summary

Katherine Freese, Director of the Weinberg Institute for Theoretical Physics, discusses the latest advancements and theories in the search for dark matter and dark energy. She details the innovative 'paleo detector' concept, which uses ancient rocks to collect dark matter tracks over billions of years, offering an alternative to expensive liquid xenon detectors. Freese also explains her work on 'dark stars,' early universe objects powered by dark matter, which are now being identified as candidates by the James Webb Space Telescope. The conversation also covers the three main dark matter candidates (WIMPs, axions, primordial black holes) and the 'make it, shake it, or break it' methods for detection. Finally, Freese presents a contrarian view on recent Desi experiment findings, suggesting that dark energy may not be changing over time, aligning with a simpler interpretation of data.
Understanding dark matter and dark energy is fundamental to comprehending the universe's composition, evolution, and ultimate fate. This episode provides a direct look into the cutting-edge experimental and theoretical approaches being used to solve these profound mysteries, highlighting innovative detection methods and challenging established interpretations of cosmic data. The potential discovery of 'dark stars' or the confirmation of 'paleo detectors' could revolutionize astrophysics and particle physics, reshaping our understanding of the cosmos.

Takeaways

  • Dark matter detection is shifting to 'paleo detectors' using ancient rocks, collecting interaction tracks over billions of years.
  • Katherine Freese's 'dark stars' are theoretical early universe objects, made of ordinary matter but powered by internal dark matter, and are now candidates for unexplained bright objects observed by JWST.
  • The three leading candidates for dark matter particles are WIMPs, axions, and primordial black holes, each with distinct detection methods.
  • Dark energy is a complete mystery, causing repulsive behavior and accelerating cosmic expansion, but its nature (constant vs. time-varying) is heavily debated.
  • The 'make it, shake it, or break it' framework describes direct (accelerators, underground detectors) and indirect (annihilation products) methods for detecting WIMPs.
  • Purely dark matter galaxies, invisible but detectable via gravitational lensing, may exist in the universe.

Insights

1Paleo Detectors: Using Ancient Rocks to Hunt Dark Matter

Instead of massive liquid xenon detectors, a new approach involves extracting ancient rocks from deep underground (e.g., olivine from 5km depth). These rocks have accumulated 'tracks' from dark matter interactions over billions of years, effectively replacing detection volume with geological time. This method also allows for studying neutrinos and past supernova rates.

Freese details the concept, its proposal in 2018, and its current status as a major experimental effort. She mentions olivine as a suitable rock type and the need for deep underground locations to shield from cosmic rays.

2Dark Stars: Early Universe Objects Powered by Dark Matter

Dark stars are hypothetical first-generation stars, composed of ordinary hydrogen and helium, but powered by the annihilation of dark matter particles within their core, rather than nuclear fusion. These stars would be huge (10x Earth-Sun distance in radius), cool, and could grow to a million times the mass of the sun and a billion times as bright by accreting ordinary matter without blowing it off. Candidates for these objects are now being observed by the James Webb Space Telescope.

Freese describes her early work on dark stars and expresses excitement about JWST observations of super-bright, early universe objects that current models struggle to explain, suggesting they could be dark stars.

3The Dark Energy Debate: Is it Constant or Time-Varying?

The 'vanilla model' of dark energy, consistent with Einstein's general relativity, posits it as a constant (cosmological constant). However, some recent data, particularly from the Desi experiment, suggests that dark energy might be changing over time, implying a modification to Einstein's equations. Katherine Freese and her collaborator Yun Wang, using a simpler interpretation of the same Desi data, do not find strong evidence for time-varying dark energy, aligning with Occam's Razor.

Freese explains the Desi experiment's findings () and then presents her team's counter-analysis (), stating, 'we do not find that evidence to be very strong actually. So I don't think it's happening.'

4Three Main Candidates for Dark Matter and Detection Methods

Scientists are exploring three primary candidates for dark matter: Weakly Interacting Massive Particles (WIMPs), Axions, and Primordial Black Holes. WIMPs interact via the weak force and are sought using 'make it, shake it, or break it' methods. Axions can convert into photons in magnetic fields. Primordial black holes, formed in the early universe, could be detected through gravitational wave mergers.

Freese lists the three candidates () and then elaborates on the 'make it' (particle accelerators), 'shake it' (underground detectors), and 'break it' (indirect detection of annihilation products like neutrinos) methods for WIMPs.

Bottom Line

The global supply of xenon, a key element for large-scale dark matter detectors, has been largely bought out by these experiments, driving up its cost and necessitating alternative detection methods.

So What?

This market cornering highlights the immense scale and resource demands of current dark matter research, pushing scientists to innovate and develop new, potentially more cost-effective and scalable approaches like paleo detectors.

Impact

Develop alternative, less resource-intensive materials or detection techniques for fundamental physics experiments, or explore methods to recycle/recover specialized materials used in large-scale physics projects.

Dark stars, powered by dark matter annihilation rather than fusion, could explain several early universe anomalies observed by the James Webb Space Telescope, including supermassive black holes, 'blue monsters,' and 'little red dots.'

So What?

If confirmed, dark stars would represent a completely new type of stellar object, fundamentally changing our understanding of early star formation and the role of dark matter in cosmic evolution. It offers a unified explanation for multiple perplexing JWST observations.

Impact

Focus JWST follow-up observations on candidate 'dark star' objects to gather more data, and refine theoretical models to predict their specific observable signatures, potentially leading to a groundbreaking discovery in astrophysics.

Key Concepts

Occam's Razor

The principle that, among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Neil deGrasse Tyson applies this when favoring Katherine Freese's simpler interpretation of Desi experiment data, which suggests dark energy is not time-varying, over more complex models.

Lessons

  • Explore the concept of 'paleo detectors' and the specific properties of olivine as a medium for recording dark matter interactions over geological timescales.
  • Investigate the 'dark stars' hypothesis as a potential explanation for early universe anomalies observed by the James Webb Space Telescope, considering their unique formation and energy source.
  • Understand the three main theoretical candidates for dark matter (WIMPs, axions, primordial black holes) and the distinct experimental approaches ('make it, shake it, or break it') used to search for each.
  • Follow the ongoing debate regarding the time-variability of dark energy, particularly the different interpretations of data from experiments like Desi, and consider the implications for Einstein's general relativity.
  • Recognize that purely dark matter galaxies, invisible to direct light but detectable through gravitational lensing, might exist and are actively being sought by astronomers.

Notable Moments

James Webb, administrator of NASA in the 1960s and namesake of the JWST, was an accountant, not a scientist, highlighting the importance of administrators in scientific endeavors.

This anecdote underscores that major scientific achievements, like the moon landing or complex space telescopes, require diverse expertise, including strong administrative leadership, not just scientific talent.

The theoretical calculation of vacuum energy is off by a factor of 10^120 compared to the observed dark energy, representing one of the biggest mismatches in physics.

This 'vacuum catastrophe' highlights a profound, unsolved problem in physics, indicating a fundamental gap in our understanding of quantum mechanics and gravity, and the nature of dark energy itself.

The idea of 'dark matter galaxies' composed purely of dark matter, invisible but detectable via gravitational lensing, is presented.

This concept opens up new avenues for searching for dark matter structures and could reveal a hidden population of galaxies that do not contain ordinary, visible matter, challenging our current census of cosmic structures.

Quotes

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"Usually when you have a great idea, you kill it in 10 minutes because it violates some observation. Occasionally it not only survives those first 10 minutes, but then people start telling you, 'Did you know you solved this problem? Did you know you solved that problem?' And that's what's going on here. We keep solving problems."

Katherine Freese
"

"The definition of matter is that it feels gravitational attraction... But for dark energy, it is it is completely different from matter. It is something that's causing a repulsive behavior. It's pushing things apart from one."

Katherine Freese
"

"You can either to find them, you can make it, shake it, or break it."

Katherine Freese
"

"Without dark matter, we wouldn't exist. It had to collapse and clump and make proto galaxies before ordinary matter could do it."

Katherine Freese

Q&A

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